Curse

Ensign · Feb 24, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Level 18 fiends have 440 HP. A Ritualist's level 14 fiends have 590 health, at 16 Spawning Power. However due to their lower level the level 14 fiends have 12 less armor, meaning they take 23% more damage from attacks. Thus they're only as durable as a level 18 minion with 479 HP against attacks.

Of course they last longer without healing, but also are harder to keep healed.

Considering that you're giving up another attribute line and four levels worth of damage for some questionable durability, I can't see how the Ri/N will ever outperform a necro primary at smashing things with minions.

Peace,
-CxE

Guardian of the Light · Feb 25, 2006, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Wait a sec who said minions get more armor per lvl? in fact who said they got armor at all?

Anyways I'm going to throw a Ri/N out on the table so we can discuss.

Boon of Creation
Explosive Growth
Animate Flesh Golem {E}
Animate Bone Horror
Verata's Sacrifice
Taste of Death
Death Nova or Blood of the Master
Ressurection Signet or Flesh of My Flesh

Spawning Power: 16 (12+3+1)
Death Magic: 12
Restoration Magic: 4 (3+1)

Boon of Creation gets some energy back every time you create a minion (I have tested). Keep it and Explosive Growth up and you'll gain energy and do a little damage.

So I bet your wondering why I got Bone Horror instead of Minions or Fiends. Well energy is a bit of a problem so I decided to switch to it to help my energy. I also added Flesh Golem b/c well everyone knows this skill is going to be out and it sounds cool so I might as well us it as my elite.

I have a feeling this will have more use in PvE b/c we can use them as meat shield (or bone shields

)

AlienFromBeyond · Feb 25, 2006, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Wouldn't Minions trigger Boon of Creation twice? That's the one that makes two guys that are weaker than horrors, right?

Ensign · Feb 25, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Wait a sec who said minions get more armor per lvl? in fact who said they got armor at all?

I did. In the post just above yours.

While I'm at it I'll mention that minion damage scales even more rapidly than armor - a level 18 minion deals roughly 40% more damage than a level 14 minion.

Minion effectiveness scales with attribute level harder than anything else in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Anyways I'm going to throw a Ri/N out on the table so we can discuss.

Explosive Growth / Animate Bone Minions is kinda interesting if you can make the energy work, probably using the Attuned pot. If it triggers twice you're getting Putrid Explosion-level damage with every cast, plus two happy Death Nova targets (their fragility doesn't matter because you just want them to explode anyway). Seems like a wonky but fun PvE build.

Peace,
-CxE

Carinae · Feb 25, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

What does the average MM have in Soul Reaping? 5+1 or so?

Much more, between 8-13. Once you get going, it's the best energy management in the game...and dedicated MM's burn a LOT of energy.

TopGun · Feb 25, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Explosive Growth / Animate Bone Minions is kinda interesting if you can make the energy work, probably using the Attuned pot. If it triggers twice you're getting Putrid Explosion-level damage with every cast, plus two happy Death Nova targets (their fragility doesn't matter because you just want them to explode anyway). Seems like a wonky but fun PvE build.

Peace,
-CxE

Add a ranger with EoE for even more fun! ^_^

But would this sort of build be suited to a Ritualist or Necro primary? I imagine the 16 in spawning power would hold more effect if Explosive did in fact hit twice. And ritualist healing skills might give a walking-minion-bomb-necro the protective force needed to be more viable in the random arenas, where monks only heal themselves >.< I love brining self-heals around because of stupid people... nothing like being independent.

As for the continuing debate on Ritualist Minion Masters, the spirit spawned from the Ri spell "Union" should also be accounted for in the debate, as it would reduce the damage your minions take by 15 as long as the spirit lives. This would further the capabilities of a Ritualist priamary because the spirit formed by a Ri would have greater health than one formed by a N, and would thus would be more capable of siphoning off the damage the minions are taking.

Just some thoughts

Guardian of the Light · Feb 25, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond

Wouldn't Minions trigger Boon of Creation twice? That's the one that makes two guys that are weaker than horrors, right?

>.< should have tested that. I only tested fiends.

TopGun · Feb 25, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

But again, minions are really only viable in an "explosive" build...

bobrath · Feb 27, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Dunno how viable this source is: clicky!

But it lists many interesting skills including the (possibly mistyped name)
Vetara's Promies - Enchantment - Blood - 15e, 1c, 30r
Sacrifice 33% health. For xx seconds, your minions have health regeneration of 10. When verata's promise ends, all your minions die.

Seems like the perfect skill for a bombing necro... Useless to real MMs tho (imo).

BannyD · Feb 27, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

about the bone minions...both explosive and boon trigger twice unless they change this feature in some update..i managed to test that in the update. it is quite nice if allyou want is to explode the minions (they suck for doing dmg) since to summon them, with boon on, it only costs a net 7 energy

Guardian of the Light · Mar 05, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Dunno how viable this source is: clicky!

But it lists many interesting skills including the (possibly mistyped name)
Vetara's Promies - Enchantment - Blood - 15e, 1c, 30r
Sacrifice 33% health. For xx seconds, your minions have health regeneration of 10. When verata's promise ends, all your minions die.

Seems like the perfect skill for a bombing necro... Useless to real MMs tho (imo).

notice tahts blood magic ^_^

Fates · Mar 05, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

What does the average MM have in Soul Reaping? 5+1 or so? ...

Are you kidding? Any MM that keeps more than 3 or 4 fiends/horrors going at a time has at least 10+1 SR. There are time in SF and Tombs that I have more than 20+ fiends going. No way I could do that w/ 6 points in SR.

LifeInfusion · Mar 06, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

But again, minions are really only viable in an "explosive" build...

...What about MM that use them as tanks or just plain ranged damage?

If you think Death Nova is all Minions are good for, you might want to relook the death magic line.

Kai Nui · Mar 06, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

It'd work with ranger secondary aswell because they have spirits.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 06, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

...What about MM that use them as tanks or just plain ranged damage?

If you think Death Nova is all Minions are good for, you might want to relook the death magic line.

Death Nova +Animate bone Minions
26-85x2= 52-170

Putrid Explosion
24-101

So not a bad combo there.

However I agree with him I perfer...

Infuse Condition+ Martyr/Draw Conditions

Carinae · Mar 06, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

I have been watching this thread with greath interest for a while now. Of course, until we get Factions, we won't fully understand what Ritualists bring to the table. No doubt the Rit skillset will be 'adjusted' before release.

My prediction for a winning MM character combo is N/Rt, centered around Union+Shelter. It's viability depends on the recharge rate of those two spirits. That combo might well be able to run in FoW/UW as a standard MM, which isn't possible at all right now.

The downside is the loss of Heal Area, which is a huge loss unless /Rt brings Self/Minion healing to the table also.

Fates · Mar 06, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Heal area? Wtf? w/ 16 (12+3+1) in Death and 11 (10+1) in soul reaping, what does that leave for healing, 6? If you want to have lots of fiends, make lots, keep verata's up as much as possible, use OoB liberally, not heal lots.

Taking points out of SR to put into healing is a huge mistake.

Carinae · Mar 06, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I can make massive armies.

I fail to see what maxing SR has to do with raising minions or casting verata's. I never have energy issues, and NEVER miss a heal/vs/botm cycle.

Putting SR very high can end up wasting energy because you cant control when SR triggers.

7 Healing is a 100 point self, and minion heal. It's a mistake to not put point into Healing, I'm afraid.

EDIT: There are actually a couple huge thread on this in the Necro forums, and the overwhelming majority use HA.

Guardian of the Light · Mar 07, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I can make massive armies.

I fail to see what maxing SR has to do with raising minions or casting verata's. I never have energy issues, and NEVER miss a heal/vs/botm cycle.

Putting SR very high can end up wasting energy because you cant control when SR triggers.

7 Healing is a 100 point self, and minion heal. It's a mistake to not put point into Healing, I'm afraid.

EDIT: There are actually a couple huge thread on this in the Necro forums, and the overwhelming majority use HA.

What about Blood of the Master?

Carinae · Mar 07, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

That too. VS, BotM, HA and Offering as well. Heal Area not only negates the sacrifice skills, but also heals minions like a second BotM.

Union+Shelter and other Ritualist spirits are going to be crucial, but it might be better to just bring a Ritualist primary. Don't know yet, but I do want to try N/Rt.